Coding, engineering AND law...Lisa Neal-Graves is the living example that you don't have to choose any ONE thing. How does she make it all work together? Listen in to find out more!
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Lisa: Education was incredibly critical because you couldn't necessarily get a job without having degrees. And so my dad was one of the first 17 black engineers that were hired at IBM in Boulder Colorado. And he literally decided that based on his experience he needed to raise engineers. So I knew math and I started doing math before I really even understood how to construct a sentence. So I was doing algebra. By the time I was in the first grade so math became for all intents and purposes my first language with English being the language that I had to speak because that was sort of necessary but math was really what I loved.
By the time I got to high school there was the high school that I was flattered to go to was George Washington High School and it was a computer magnet schools the only Denver public school of schools system that was offering computer both computers and you know sort of this notion of teaching computer math so i took computer math all three years of high school and decided my father wanted us to be double in. I decided that at the time there was a lot of iron being created but there wasn't a lot of people writing code. And so I decided I wanted to be a computer scientist and convinced him that that was a viable majoring in something that made sense.
So I went to undergrad. My major was computer science and applied math and then I had a little bit of real world phobia but found that if I worked for Bell Labs they would send you to graduate school for your first year of work because you needed to have a masters in order to work for Bell Labs. So I went to Michigan State and I got masters in computer science. And when I came back I just kept going because there was this need to explore more there weren't a lot of women but there were some and there were very few black women for sure. But most of us sort of knew each other. It was a small community with a small enough community that you knew each other. And when I came back I realized that in order to really control your destiny you needed to be able to manage projects right.
I wanted to understand better what it meant to be a product manager or project manager. And so I got a masters in engineering management and from that I ultimately did product management and that was incredibly cool because you had all these people that were typically back in those days they were marketing people but they didn't necessarily understand all the aspects of technology and I figured if I was the technologies and I could figure out how to do better marketing I could better position the products that we were creating. And at the time particularly at Bell Labs they were way ahead of their time here doing things that a lot of people weren't really thinking about and I was building. When I first started switch simulators that would help us go from you know introducing new features of a switch which required 36 months to reduce that down ultimately to a year. And then you know you know today you can do something really within a couple weeks, so just sort of watching that progression.
Well there are lots of other interesting challenges that are happening around it so I never wanted to get too far from technology because women are always considered quote on quote not technical enough. And I was doing a lot of applications in the networks of building solutions like a river Alborz said that the American public deserved to have the IRS through the calls within 30 seconds. So we built some of the first applications that answered calls using some of this automated infrastructure so that if you wanted to get like an address you could call in. This system would check a database and give you the local in address that's near the zip code between Denver but those applications were of phone based and so they were really difficult to navigate. And then the Internet happened right in the 1990s. And until we started building applications that not only resided in the network but actually were supported by much more of a web based interface and so was responsible for building what would be considered the first web enabled call center and that was very cool stuff.
And all of that netted you know all of these different types of applications as people now called cloud based applications and then ultimately you know they became sort of these customer service oriented like click to talk. I can remember really trying to get my engineering team to build a chat application because I believe that if you were on a Web site that was offering retail that you'd want to be able to chat with the web you'd want be able to chat with a customer service agent and you'd be able to do that with you know chat technology not just talking while we were working with the voice solutions right. We were we were working on click to talk but we really wanted to also have some other options and the engineering team was like who would ever want to do that. And it's funny because today if I had just quit and marketed that moved forward men this would be life would be much different. Be like the guy that came up with the cup supporters for Ferhat gaps. What are those top sleeves for copycats that would have been my life? [Unintelligible 08:32].
You know so most of my career I had been through this network based solutions and I finally came to a situation where the EU had come out with their own privacy directive and the U.S. hadn't responded and in the early 2000s and I was arguing with our lawyers about the risk that this set of solutions that we were putting forth was adding to the business because they weren't really sure that we wouldn't have to pull back henry. And I was like well I built it modularly. This is very cool. So there's a problem you can pull and play right you can pull out one module and put the security infrastructure in and play it back. But I didn't speak their language they weren't speaking my language. So i came up and said hey sweetie am going to quit my job and am going to buy some set books and take the set and go to law school.
I really went to law school to learn about privacy security and did a rise management. I was early on in math so that I would actually be able to sort of leverage that going forward not just as a lawyer but my objective was to understand it get some practical experience with it and then ultimately you know go back to products managing products and because that really for all intents and purposes my belief is that my strength is in strategy because I can see in a sort of engineering piece of it the business aspects of it in the more legal pieces and looking at it through those three lenses you can't help but come up with something that other people have really thought about yet.
Shenandoa:So which one of those subjects that you studied are you currently in?
Lisa:I really have. So right now I'm in transition because I'm helping my mom had some health challenges but my past the job that I should take I'm sort of doing some Shed work. But my real day job that I was doing 90 hours a week when I was running the cloud business for an organization called Zeo group. When I left there i helped with my law professor who is running for the attorney general's office really build out his field plan and am currently providing some legal counsel and marketing support for a startup organization that is focused on building plasma antenna.
Shenandoa:Okay awesome. So if there is someone who wants to get into this space where you've been whether that you know with the technology with the computer science how would you direct them? Is there additional info?
Lisa:So I think that when, it would be a different answer if I was talking to somebody that was back in the 80s and 90s but today there's just so many different options as to how one goes about getting a credible experience There you can. Coursera is an online literally an online university that allows you to get experience and exposure and a lot of different things. So I tell kids that I work with constantly to not put all of your eggs in one basket because you have the opportunity to merge various disciplines to come up with the thing that you really love so that you get a job doing things that you love and never have to truly work. But what I say to them is you know everybody has to know how to code. That to me is like writing a paper in college so everybody should take some courses in coding even if it's just building websites. And I think that everybody should at least understand a bit about communications.
I don't think you necessarily have to get into the nuts and bolts of communications that you should at least understand how when you're using the Internet where your data is going and who has access to all that you know I mean if you look at what's happening with Facebook that's a classic example of people allowing that to become so integral into their lives that they don't even think about the information that they're sharing and ultimately information is being captured that they should be worried about. So I encourage students to take as many math courses as they possibly can in a variety of science courses because those are courses that really are less about at least in my opinion they're less about teaching you a craft and much more about teaching you how to think. I think that the more you open yourself up to being willing to explore different areas whether they be a combination of science and literature or a combination you know I've got a really good friend that was an engineer spent much of her life doing engineering and when it came time for her to retire she decided to be a chef and her cooking is precise in that she can create the same exact meal multiple times multiple ways because she's using the principles and concepts that she learned both as an engineer and scientist.
So there's just so much more that you can do with you know being science minded than you know if you decide well I'm just a literature guru and all I want to know is about literature. Wouldn't it be cooler if you combined you know sort of understanding and know the ways that data in inspiration is captured with literature and be able to pull together customizable storylines based on your interest in a variety of different authors to pull together a different sort of genre of literature based on pulling different information from different places now. Yeah there's some copyright issues which means, that's why you need to have at least some knowledge on things like IP intellectual property but you know just being able to have more flexibility in how you think about what your career might be or how you pursue your interests you know just exposing yourself to a variety of things just gives you so much more to pick from then if you just delve directly long and deep into a specific subject.
Shenandoa:So what you're saying kind of brings up a question that I have for some people because you mention the importance of taking math classes and the importance of self-directed online learning using Coursera that you feel that one outweighs the other in your industry? And if so which and why?
Lisa:I'm going to say that the online options for courses currently almost outweigh what would be considered traditional in class courses although you do have much more flexibility in asking for you know you are it appears that you're maybe i should stop and go back for second. It depends on how you learn. So your visual learner. You know you may have a different process if you are you know somebody that learns through discussion then in class the sort of traditional classes are going to be much more effective for you in terms of how you learn if you're a visual learner and you just need to see how things work and you can read in self-directed and all of those things and explore then you know the online course option is certainly going to give you so much more variety and so many more options because you don't have to figure out the timing of classes right you can just take the class whenever you want to.
But they're also creating these learning environments that allow you to even ask questions and depending on sort of the engine behind it may be able to answer you in real time or at least they will have somebody that's picking up those questions and then answering them later. So there's just I don't know that I would actually say that there is one way or a way that's better. I think it depends on how you learn that helps.
Shenandoa:So what would you say needs to be taught in schools that are not currently?
Lisa:You know I don't think that kids are learning critical thinking right so I don't know that you know it's not just the subject area. I think in every subject you need to be thinking about it critically even with math which you know one would think is a bunch of you know they're algorithms their formulas. But there should still be some critical thinking about them as you use them so that you understand it's the applicability of it right. So I think for every course those who teach ought to be teaching how to either challenge conventional norms so that you create students that really are innovative. They should be creating you know sort of forcing students to think about things differently so that you don't just learn for learn sake right; you learned to figure out how does this apply to me specifically.
There is a need to know history. I mean there's a need to understand how does that history apply to me today so it think about similar classes that I took advanced placement classes that you take when you're in middle school and high school you know I said then when I was a medical history of like I've never going to use any of this crap. And the only applicability that I found for it is when you looking at some of these different show that is in a sort of historic historically true. You get to apply a little bit of it. But I was thinking maybe it would have been very cool if I could have had a professor that taught medieval history that tied it with you know sort of a way of critically thinking to think about well this is the way it was back in medieval times but how could that have played out differently.
What are all the different threads that you know if it if this would have happened? What else could we say or are there other, what is another way to think about it. Given that this is this group won over that group. But if they had had technology very differently back in those days what could have been an outcome. So I think the thing that is most lacking is the whole notion of critical thinking you know thinking for yourself and not just memorizing and making sure that you understand how it works I think that that has its place. But I also think that there ought to be some level of criticality that gets applied to it so that you are forced to really not just learn the concept but really understand the concept.
Shenandoa:So what's your biggest challenge? How we overcome that? And what would you say to a young woman who is at an insurmountable seeming roadblock?
Lisa:I think the biggest challenge. I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Because when I started I started at a time when there weren't a lot of black women in computer science. And for those of us that were we were generally particularly as you worked for larger organizations that were generally sort of pushed to do more testing rather than creating. And there is something to be said. I was fortunate and I didn't necessarily do as much testing and there is something we said about you know sort of understanding how things are how to test things so that you really do understand what user influences might drive differences and how you build or how you create.
But there's also something to be said about actually being on the front end of creation. And so the biggest challenge that I've had is really finding the right kinds of opportunities they give you not just a great job but a job that actually allows you to create and be a part of you know doing something that is a startup because for the first time probably in I'd say 15 years we are now starting to see a lot of black women entrepreneurs. But as I look at some and I think through you know how many of them are in a sort of like Facebook kinds of folks. It's very few and far between and you have to ask well why that is. Are we do we shy away from it because we are encouraged to go down that path.
What's the driver for that? And I think to answer the question much more specifically the biggest challenge that I've had understands how to truly be an entrepreneur. When I've spoken to other women about the fact that you know I need to be doing my own startup. You know they say things like he should really just join a company because startups are hard. I don't really think we support each other in that way. And I get that they're hard. You know somebody has got to sort of leave the path and figure out the algorithm to be you know figure out how do you do it and then bring the rest of us along so that there are more of us doing it. So you'd have a greater opportunity to succeed.
What I would say to a person there is at least in this space because when you're a computer scientist and you have business experience and legal experience there is so much more that you can do both from an operations perspective as well as on the front end in terms of creation. I would say don't be don't be afraid of it and identify people who can work alongside you that will build you up as opposed to make you more afraid because there's already a lot of bit of associated with it cause new and you're doing something that's outside the norm. And there's not a framework that anybody has developed that is a sure shot recipe for how to get it done. What was the third part of that question?
Shenandoa:So there was say if there's a young woman in your place at a roadblock that seems insurmountable what will you say to her?
Lisa:Break it down. So if you think that that roadblock really is insurmountable break down what it is that you need to do and figure out who do you know that can help you get past some of those things. What I find is when there's an obstacle that appears to be bigger than what it is that I want to accomplish. I have to step back from it and ask the questions or what makes this thing so big and why is it such a hard nut to crack in and figure out how to chunk it into it. There are both digestible and you can know find your way around it or find people that can help you solve for them. So I say that there really isn't anything that's insurmountable. It really is just about whether that is important enough to want to try.
Shenandoa:It nearly the top of the hour so I just ask last question. What do you feel most proud of and why?
Lisa:One of the things that I've always wanted to be able to do is that it's really not about me as I go through this whole process. And I was fortunate enough to sort of grow up doing math and I can remember even I was in a seventh grade I think we were doing geometry or something and the professor was giving us an assessment exam to figure out where we were with the subject matter. And I was the only black kid in the class, and certainly one of few women in the class. And when he was handing back the exams he said everybody get the grade that I expected them to you know the score that I expected them to accept for one person and it was me and I was thinking oh I can't believe it I failed at math class and I got the exam back.
It was a perfect score and I was thinking why I know why he weren't expecting this for me. I mean I knew I was going to get into. It was and it didn't occur to me. He just never expected me to do well because I was very different from the rest of the make up the class. But it didn't bother me but actually made me decide that other people can't really dictate what you can and can't do you dictate it. And so if I look at the things that I've accomplished there are a lot of people that told me when I decided to go to law school. I have been in the industry as a vice president for Eunice's and literally quitting was going to reset it was going to be a reset to my career. And I thought well you know this is it's not necessarily a reset if it's something different. And so I think the thing that I am most proud of is the fact that I was able to formerly make the decision to go to law school finish law school and go in house and be legal counsel to the corporate CIO.
You know in a matter of three years out of law school I mean that's just isn't necessarily so done. That was incredibly cool because I wanted to be able to get my you know sort of opportunity to work around the issues of privacy security and digital rights management and what better place to do it at 14 at a Fortune 50 working with the CIO and helping you know at the very front end of all of these issues you know figure out what that path should be and define what are the policies and procedures that need to be put in place in order to protect the asserts of the company. It was an amazing experience to able put all of my background and experiences to work. Being able to do that showed me that the reason I went to law school at first place it was a good reason to go and that what i wanted to accomplish could be accomplished and so from there is when I decided there is a lot of other things I could do with this combination of skills and it was validating.
Shenandoa:Thank you very much for your time.